Not that long ago we were listening to a preacher who asked the question as to whether you could really be a Christian if you were also pro abortion and gay marriage. We know where the World stands on these issues but what about us in the Church. Do these 2 issues really matter or can they be put aside so we simply preach grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Is this what Paul meant when he said ; I have become all things to all people, so that by all means I may save some.
1 Corinthians 9:22b
Well to answer that, when the religious leaders tried to trick Jesus with these kind of questions he would often respond with “what does the law say ?”. If the Church did that, the answers are easy. But today we are very sensitive to public opinion and we see modern churches compromising on these 2 issues.
But it got us to thinking about a bigger question. For example, we know Christians who really value social justice and want to build a bridge between the World and the Church by crossing over and supporting people where they are at. They speak about sin only as a last resort. Modernist Churches want to create an environment where everyone feels accepted and not judged. The hope is that the seeker will recognise all the benefits of being a Christian and to decide they want that too. What could be wrong with that ?
Fundamentalism is a dirty word these days. In fact having a conservative position on anything provokes hatred. We heard about one man who said he was congratulated for coming out as gay but later was vilified for coming out as a conservative. We have different types of Christians similar to the different types of Muslims. Where is the line ? How can you know if you really are a Christian ?
The Bible says;
But it got us to thinking about a bigger question. For example, we know Christians who really value social justice and want to build a bridge between the World and the Church by crossing over and supporting people where they are at. They speak about sin only as a last resort. Modernist Churches want to create an environment where everyone feels accepted and not judged. The hope is that the seeker will recognise all the benefits of being a Christian and to decide they want that too. What could be wrong with that ?
Fundamentalism is a dirty word these days. In fact having a conservative position on anything provokes hatred. We heard about one man who said he was congratulated for coming out as gay but later was vilified for coming out as a conservative. We have different types of Christians similar to the different types of Muslims. Where is the line ? How can you know if you really are a Christian ?
The Bible says;
Put yourselves to the test to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize regarding yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless, indeed, you fail the test!
2 Corinthians 13:5
So we did this really interesting test of their beliefs and we did it by referencing the Apostle’s Creed. This is actually the Catholic version which is very well known. You can join with me if you like, there are 12 parts;
If you believe all of these things already, then I can retire.
Or can I ? Let’s look a bit deeper. We can compare to the Creed which we often sing at PCC. The Creed is written by Hillsong and it is everything a modern church represents. It has a lovely tune, warm and positive, inviting like their services. We will make a comparison to the old Catholic version. We know the Catholic style of church. Formal, designed to give you a sense of awe, ornate cold stone, dark with stained glass windows letting in the light, hard pews. The Catholic version of the creed reflects that style.
These are simply observations of differences, most are minor. You’ll notice I’ve put some in green and some in orange. I’ll come back to the ones in orange later.
So we did this really interesting test of their beliefs and we did it by referencing the Apostle’s Creed. This is actually the Catholic version which is very well known. You can join with me if you like, there are 12 parts;
- I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,
- I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
- who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
- suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried;
- he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead;
- he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
- from there He will come to judge the living and the dead.
- I believe in the Holy Spirit,
- the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
- the forgiveness of sins,
- the resurrection of the body,
- and life everlasting.
If you believe all of these things already, then I can retire.
Or can I ? Let’s look a bit deeper. We can compare to the Creed which we often sing at PCC. The Creed is written by Hillsong and it is everything a modern church represents. It has a lovely tune, warm and positive, inviting like their services. We will make a comparison to the old Catholic version. We know the Catholic style of church. Formal, designed to give you a sense of awe, ornate cold stone, dark with stained glass windows letting in the light, hard pews. The Catholic version of the creed reflects that style.
These are simply observations of differences, most are minor. You’ll notice I’ve put some in green and some in orange. I’ll come back to the ones in orange later.
In the 1st verse of the Hillsong version you will notice it said that Jesus is our Saviour whereas it is not stated in the Catholic version. Don’t stress about this because the very meaning of Jesus is Saviour.
I really like the clear statement about the Trinity though - three in one. All the persons in the Trinity are in the Catholic version but they are more spread out so people might not understand that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three in one. The Holy Spirit does not seem as personal in the Catholic version but more separated from the other 2 persons in the Godhead.
The second thing that’s good is mention of the name of Jesus connecting to resurrection because it shows the power of God to do miracles in Jesus’s name.
What I like in the Catholic version is that Jesus is called God’s only Son. Well John 3:16 says only begotten Son to distinguish a difference because as believers we have all been adopted into God’s family. It shows more of how precious Jesus is to God the Father to call him his only Son and helps us understand how much of a personal offense it was to God when Jesus was murdered.
I also like clear statements like resurrection of the body because some people think it is just a spiritual resurrection, yet we know Jesus was physically raised from the dead and that is our great hope also. I wouldn’t make issue out of not having that in the Hillsong version, it is a song after all.
In verse 2, I like how Jesus is called our Defender as well as our Judge. This is true and shows that He is for us. In the Catholic version he is Judge and there is forgiveness of sins but that means something different to Catholics. That means confessions to the priest, hail Mary’s, Rosary Beads and Purgatory first. It doesn’t tell us that God is with and for us as our Defender.
I do notice something missing in the Hillsong version though. It is perhaps a reflection of the positive message that the Modern Church likes to emphasise and a hesitancy to say anything negative.
The main thing being no mention of Death and Hell both of which are taboo subjects in our modern world. Descended into what - Darkness. Did he suffer from mental health issues, was he depressed about something ? The Catholic version expresses the belief in Hell, something the modern church doesn’t talk about. It’s such an important message.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
We have churches preaching today that no one will go to Hell and even that there is no Hell. "Love Wins". In the Hillsong, Death and Hell are not mentioned at all. The end of Death is a positive thing but no one likes the thought of people being thrown into the Lake of Fire so they just don’t talk about it. The caution is that by not talking about it, they may be affirming the message that some theologians give that there is no Hell, that it is not a literal place.
Because it is a song I wouldn’t make an issue out of other differences like no mention of the third day, the 2 parts of the ascension - first out of Hell, then up into Heaven. It’s probably going to be understood by a non-believer singing the song that Jesus has risen from the dead and is now revealed as God and ruling from Heaven.
In the 3rd verse I like that we are called the holy church not the holy catholic Church as in the Catholic version. Even though it’s a small ‘c’ in the word catholic meaning universal, I do believe it deliberately teaches the view that the Catholic Church is the only true Church. That exclusivity is a sign of a cult not the true church of Jesus Christ.
There are some more problems with the Catholic version in the meaning behind the words.
Firstly the Virgin Mary. Why the big ‘V’ and not little ‘v’ in virgin ?
Let’s look at this and other hot topics.
So basically the immaculate conception is of Mary not Jesus ! That is not in the Bible and is heresy I’m afraid. Think about it, firstly it is giving Mary godlike status. Secondly it takes away from the humanity of Jesus and that therefore he would not have faced the same temptations as us.
But the Bible says;
I really like the clear statement about the Trinity though - three in one. All the persons in the Trinity are in the Catholic version but they are more spread out so people might not understand that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three in one. The Holy Spirit does not seem as personal in the Catholic version but more separated from the other 2 persons in the Godhead.
The second thing that’s good is mention of the name of Jesus connecting to resurrection because it shows the power of God to do miracles in Jesus’s name.
What I like in the Catholic version is that Jesus is called God’s only Son. Well John 3:16 says only begotten Son to distinguish a difference because as believers we have all been adopted into God’s family. It shows more of how precious Jesus is to God the Father to call him his only Son and helps us understand how much of a personal offense it was to God when Jesus was murdered.
I also like clear statements like resurrection of the body because some people think it is just a spiritual resurrection, yet we know Jesus was physically raised from the dead and that is our great hope also. I wouldn’t make issue out of not having that in the Hillsong version, it is a song after all.
In verse 2, I like how Jesus is called our Defender as well as our Judge. This is true and shows that He is for us. In the Catholic version he is Judge and there is forgiveness of sins but that means something different to Catholics. That means confessions to the priest, hail Mary’s, Rosary Beads and Purgatory first. It doesn’t tell us that God is with and for us as our Defender.
I do notice something missing in the Hillsong version though. It is perhaps a reflection of the positive message that the Modern Church likes to emphasise and a hesitancy to say anything negative.
The main thing being no mention of Death and Hell both of which are taboo subjects in our modern world. Descended into what - Darkness. Did he suffer from mental health issues, was he depressed about something ? The Catholic version expresses the belief in Hell, something the modern church doesn’t talk about. It’s such an important message.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
We have churches preaching today that no one will go to Hell and even that there is no Hell. "Love Wins". In the Hillsong, Death and Hell are not mentioned at all. The end of Death is a positive thing but no one likes the thought of people being thrown into the Lake of Fire so they just don’t talk about it. The caution is that by not talking about it, they may be affirming the message that some theologians give that there is no Hell, that it is not a literal place.
Because it is a song I wouldn’t make an issue out of other differences like no mention of the third day, the 2 parts of the ascension - first out of Hell, then up into Heaven. It’s probably going to be understood by a non-believer singing the song that Jesus has risen from the dead and is now revealed as God and ruling from Heaven.
In the 3rd verse I like that we are called the holy church not the holy catholic Church as in the Catholic version. Even though it’s a small ‘c’ in the word catholic meaning universal, I do believe it deliberately teaches the view that the Catholic Church is the only true Church. That exclusivity is a sign of a cult not the true church of Jesus Christ.
There are some more problems with the Catholic version in the meaning behind the words.
Firstly the Virgin Mary. Why the big ‘V’ and not little ‘v’ in virgin ?
Let’s look at this and other hot topics.
- Firstly, have you heard of the “The Immaculate Conception” which is a belief in the Catholic Church ? What do you think it means ? This is from the Catholic website;
So basically the immaculate conception is of Mary not Jesus ! That is not in the Bible and is heresy I’m afraid. Think about it, firstly it is giving Mary godlike status. Secondly it takes away from the humanity of Jesus and that therefore he would not have faced the same temptations as us.
But the Bible says;
For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15
Where to start with this ?
- Secondly, the communion of saints. Once again from the Catholic website;
Where to start with this ?
1. Purgatory - where people go to pay for their sins before they can go to heaven. Purgatory is not in the Bible but even if it was - be reconciled to God now, don’t take it upon yourself
Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making his plea through us. We plead with you on Christ’s behalf, “Be reconciled to God!” God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21
2. The living who do not belong to the true Church share in the communion of saints to the measure of their union with Christ ? That statement is an oxymoron. You can only be in the true Church if are in union with Christ !
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me—and I in him—bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out like a branch, and dries up; and such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and are burned up.
John 15:5-6
AND
If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God resides in him and he in God.
1 John 4:15
3. Mutual exchange of prayers between Saints on Earth, Purgatory and Heaven ? Talking to the dead is what mediums do;
“‘The person who turns to the spirits of the dead and familiar spirits to commit prostitution by going after them, I will set my face against that person and cut him off from the midst of his people.
Leviticus 20:6
When my brother died I felt that in strange way there is now a very real connection between here and there. The Bible says;
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:1-2
I do believe we get help from Heaven because of people who have gone there before us but there is a line that we are not to cross and praying to the saints is one of them. However the communion of saints certainly adds a greater meaning to when we have Communion !
There are 2 other very important things that you might observe are missing from the Creed - the authority of scripture and being born again.
I do believe we get help from Heaven because of people who have gone there before us but there is a line that we are not to cross and praying to the saints is one of them. However the communion of saints certainly adds a greater meaning to when we have Communion !
There are 2 other very important things that you might observe are missing from the Creed - the authority of scripture and being born again.
- Thirdly, The authority of the Word of God.
The Church has not been strong enough on this point and today even some Christians are saying that certain parts of the Bible were only for the times they were in and that some key books like Jonah are just illustrations not real events. They forget that Jesus referred to these characters and events as real and that Jesus himself is the Word and therefore it is true.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it.
John 1:1-5
AND
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.
AND
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
- Fourthly, you must be born again
Jesus said to Nicodemus;
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:5-7
There is a day when you are born again, it’s an actual date just like when you were born. Every Christian has 2 birthdays ! Next time someone asks you “When’s your birthday ?” tell them “Which one ?” and observe the confusion on their face if they’re not a Christian.
There has to be a date. Even C S Lewis said in his book Surprised by Joy;
“I was driven to Whipsnade one sunny morning. When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did. Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought. Nor in great emotion. “Emotional” is perhaps the last word we can apply to some of the most important events. It was more like when a man, after a long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.”
There is my date. 12/06/77. It wasn’t even the day Arsenal won the Cup. It was right after Boys Brigade Parade and a fiery sermon by Gerard Marks at Papatoetoe Baptist Church. Maybe God is speaking to you today to confirm your faith by confessing your belief in Him from the heart for the first time.
because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
There has to be a date. Even C S Lewis said in his book Surprised by Joy;
“I was driven to Whipsnade one sunny morning. When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did. Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought. Nor in great emotion. “Emotional” is perhaps the last word we can apply to some of the most important events. It was more like when a man, after a long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.”
There is my date. 12/06/77. It wasn’t even the day Arsenal won the Cup. It was right after Boys Brigade Parade and a fiery sermon by Gerard Marks at Papatoetoe Baptist Church. Maybe God is speaking to you today to confirm your faith by confessing your belief in Him from the heart for the first time.
because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
If you do believe the Creed in your heart, then you are certainly born again. So I thought we could sing the Creed today and give you the opportunity !
If you do believe the Creed in your heart, then you are certainly born again. So I thought we could sing the Creed today and give you the opportunity !
